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Is it possible to have a scraped finish before beginning the French Polish process? As opposed to sanding.

That's how it was done for centuries.

not only is it possible, it is ideal! sanding scratches and contaminates the wood fibers with abrasive; scraping cuts cleanly and exposes more detail in the wood cells

Maybe. They did have access to abrasives, so that might not be entirely true.
I've finished a Guitar with scraping only. You are very unlikely to get everything perfectly flat and the soundboard will certainly show reed marks. You will almost certainly end up with a Guitar that has a bit more of an 'organic' look to it. That can be a good thing. Too many Guitars look like they are the direct result of an industrial process IMO. Hard to get away from that look, as it's now seen as being the height of the craft.

I don't think it will suit a high gloss finish but you can obtain a French Polished finish that suits it if you don't go to a high grit. Your final wood scraping should be done with a scraper that has been burnished very gently.
Don't use the normal glazing technique when French polishing either. Cut back with 1,000G and then do a series of straight lines with the fad and a drop of oil, perhaps 4 or 5 sessions with drying time between each one. A fairly dry fad will glaze it, a wetter fad will continue to lay down shellac and tone down the gloss.

The fact that it may be historically correct will be lost on most. The vast majority will only see an instrument that was poorly finished. Perfectly smooth finishes, weather gloss or satin, have been the norm for well over a century.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

As Brian says, the smooth 'sanded' look has been the norm, particularly in steel string guitars, for a long time. Steel strings come out of a 'production' setting, and that's part of the 'production' aesthetic. Whether or not it makes sense for a hand maker, we're stuck with it.

The 'reed' Micheal talks about has to do with the way the scraper works. It tends to compress the soft, early wood in the top, an cut the harder late wood away. Later on, with a little moisture cycling, the early wood swells back up, and you get a 'corduroy' surface. This is considered desirable in violins (Strad did it that way) but is anathema on guitars.

Good, sharp 22 grit sandpaper makes scratches that are about the same size as the structural features in the wood, and doesn't leave a 'muddy' look if you clean up well. Scraping tends to burnish the surface fibers, particularly if the scraper is dull, of course. A finely scraped surface on a fiddle will look great under finish, but so can a well sanded surface.

Me have no love for that "production" look.

Nor do me gives a back side air jet about it and as such don't feel stuck with it. Sorry but me didn't buy into that program. In fact me rejects it, much preferring oil type finishes.

Fortunately me builds aren't pitched at those who gobble up "production aesthetics"

Me prefer to scrape spruce, sand cedar and hard woods.

Me do admit though that a slick high gloss, burst finish makes it real easy to hide things like nicks, dings and banding skips. But then hiding ain't me thing ether.

Well that me take on it.


blessings
?adma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Same here. I actually consider that part an advantage of ultra-thin oil or shellac finishing, especially on inlays. I love being able to see a little edge around each piece. Otherwise you might as well use those cheap stick-on rosettes

At least some high end violin makers still go for the natural surface look. I remember visiting a violin store back when I lived in Seattle area (Hammond Ashley, to be exact), and being impressed with the surface texture on some of them, and particularly the less glossy ones. I wish I remembered the name of the maker on the particular best one I have a "memory photograph" of. I was barely getting my feet wet with instrument building (and woodworking in general), so I didn't realize at the time how rare it is to come across finishes like that.

I don't think I've found my "ultimate guitar finish" yet. Worst is the perfectly flat factory satin finish. Scritchy texture feels horrible to my fingers, and it looks totally lifeless. The typical perfectly flat mirror gloss is ok, but feels like you're "on the other side of the glass" from the wood, and looks worse and worse as it wears (particularly an issue if done with shellac). The low gloss "ultimate violin finish" may not look right when spread over a large, flat surface. My current ultra-thin, medium gloss shellac finish looks good and wears well, but still doesn't seem quite ideal. I think what bothers me the most is how it reflects light at certain angles. Let's see if I can get a photo that shows it...

Big blob of light obscures the view of the wood. Still better than mirror gloss where you'd be getting your eyes scorched by an un-diffused view of the bulb, but worse than raw wood where you'd be able to see it no problem.

In any case, I'll be sticking with my scraper.

I think virtually all the decent Violin maker uses a scraper finish. In fact it can be seen as the complete opposite of Guitar finishing. Sand a Violin too flat and you are considered a poor finisher!
In my workshop I have a few Violins (and a Cello!) that I'm storing for a couple of Violin maker friends. They all have the scraper finish. There's something about the texture, your hand naturally runs over the wood - wanting to feel that texture. You don't get that with flat, highly glossed surfaces. Such surfaces don't tend to hold your interest for very long, either visually or in a tactile manner. I'm afraid things are a little too homogeneous for that.
But you might have a hard time persuading Guitar buyers that scraper/tactile finishes are the way to go.

Yea, why do you think a large number of people here goes with EM6000 or even 2 part urethanes? Because they look good. It's hard to make French Polish look good, it shows even the tiniest scratches and it's not anywhere near as glossy as 2 part urethane or lacquer. Guitar buyers expect plastic coated guitars, and the more they pay the more they expect it.

I'm not even sure how scrapers work anymore, All I know is I can't seem to draw decent burrs. Stewmac sells a 20 dollar burnisher and it really makes me think I have to buy that to get a scraper that works. I normally use screwdriver or drill bit shafts for burnishing.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

[quote="Tai Fu"] Guitar buyers expect plastic coated guitars, and the more they pay the more they expect it.
/quote]


Sorry Tai, like me said...not my clients.

Maybe you just fell into the wrong circle of guitar buyers.

In fact some stipulate, "non of that plastic finish, thank you very much."

Guess there be no accounting for tastes eh.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Problem is most guitar buyers aren't rich men with taste (you know like violin buyers) or professional musicians. They are average rock star wannabe who wants a custom guitar, and they want it dipped in plastic, which is why almost everyone, from low end makers to high end luthiers do it. If I turn down anyone that lacks taste, I might as well find myself a different job because especially in a place like Taiwan, those types of people are literally 1 in a million. And finding someone who can actually afford a handmade guitar (as opposed to say "that's nice") is going to be much less.

I already have trouble making ends meet dealing with average musicians or hobbyist, if I only deal with those with taste, I'm going to be out in the street.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Thank you Tai,

Yes, Tai, me understand and hear your words and appreciate the position you are in.

It is basically the same here as well.

Then one day faced with instant fame and fortune and the fact that "they" would own me, me took the words of Ricky Nelson to heart and walked away from that plastic world...ya, the fame dried up and the money was often scarce but me was free to follow the voice inside of me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUDRZ5j0lUQ

and so, on your path me wishes you all the best and

many many blessings
?adma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Indeed, both are valid traditions. The violin community looks for the signs of hand work from a master craftsman, and that usually means (in part) the scraper finish typical of seventeenth century Cremonese makers. And, yes, if you think it's easy to do a really GOOD scraper finish, well, it isn't.

Our understanding of the flat-top acoustic guitar comes more from Saxony through Pennsylvania, where absolutely meticulous woodworking was highlighted by the most level and perfect shellac applied in the tradition of French polishing. Some of those early Martin finishes are barely a couple of mils thick, and blindingly shiny, with no ripples or imperfections. If you think you can do that without lots of practice, you have some learning ahead.

Modern spray and abrasive equipment, lower cost of solvents, higher cost of labor and other factors have lead us to where we are today. It's inexpensive and easy to blow on a heavy coat of one kind of plastic or another, and buff it to a high shine that would have been nearly impossible to achieve in those early days.

Interestingly, the most expensive early Martin models had a thicker finish to highlight the pearl trim, and that extra finish application was considered an upgrade - after all it took a good deal more effort to produce. While a thick mirror finish might even have been desirable in ancient times, today we usually take it for a sign of cheapness.

A thin, level, flawless and brilliant finish is the hallmark of some of today's best fretted instrument luthiers, and while members of the "public" may not be aware of the precise differences in technique and materials, most can tell at a glance that such instruments have a special look.

Without a doubt, detail work and finishing are the most skill and time intensive parts of lutherie. One friend told me years ago, "It shouldn't be called finishing, it should be called beginning.

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Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

It's OK Frank. I mostly make Vihuelas/Baroque Guitars and copies of Torres. They don't have to be that flat or that glossy. Thankfully!

It's easier to hide flaws with a satin finish, but full on blinding gloss without imperfection? That requires a lot. And no matter how careful I am, or how much I switch to finer and finer grits of sandpaper, a hidden scratch always reveals when the first coat goes down. It is actually surprising how much sanding scratches you have even though you sanded your wood to 400 grits, very throughly I might add. Lacquer does a decent job of filling them up until they are invisible, but FP shows even 220 grit scratches like night and day!

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

French Polish will fill in 220G. In fact I know people who end at 180G before French Polishing. Providing you go in straight lines and do the landing and take off it's probably fine. An Oil finish is the one that highlights scratches like no other.

Is that with or without pumice filling the soundboard? Because that essentially sands to a very fine grit.

What Frank said: the skill level and labor involved in either a fine violin or a proper gloss finish on a guitar is about the same, they're just different skills. Personally, I'd rather make guitars that show the 'hand of the maker' in the way violins are supposed to, but the aesthetic that rules in the guitar world makes that impossible to sell.

Alan - that's the deal, isn't it? We spend our lives learning and practicing the craft with the goal of being able to do one-at-a-time that which was developed in the factory setting of specialized assembly process. On the other hand, what thrill is there in clearing a low bar?

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Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

Have you actually tried it in recent years? In the "golden age of lutherie", I'd think prominent makers like yourself would be in a position to alter history by setting a new aesthetic for everyone to copy

Now that my skills are getting to what I consider sale-worthy, I'm hoping to find some like-minded buyers who want something that the factories can't do. I figure I won't be selling for top dollar for a while anyway, so I may as well not sell out just yet

Todd, Beautiful desk BTW!

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

As Jim said, impressive desk, Mr. Stock!!

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk

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Under Compensated Nut!

The trick, I think, is that the bar is only 'low' if you have the time, the right equipment, and are otherwise in a position to go that route. In a factory setting, where man-hours are expensive, it makes sense to set up to do it, but it's not a standard that makes sense for the one-off luthier.

One of my students did an incredible finish using Stew-Mac cans of spray lacquer, but he was already an expert with lacquer, having grown up with it, and painted custom cars and motorcycles. He'd probably sprayed more square feet of nitro by age twenty than most of us will in a lifetime. That's out of the question for me, if only because I've become so sensitive to nitro fumes over the years.

I had another student once who made sold body guitars, and had set up a legal spray booth. I don't know what the regs are where other people live, but I can say that, around here, complying with the law is not cheap. As a Damage Controlman in the Navy (a fireman aboard a floating bomb) I came realize that every safety reg out there, no matter how stupid it seems, exists because somebody died. Since then I've been strongly disposed to follow the regs. Frankly, it's not worth it to use a spray finish for the number of guitars I make in that case.

The problem is that the 'standard' finish is more or less built around the properties of things like nitro that can be applied by spraying. The standard also assumes that you're willing to build up a fair thickness of finish: Ovation's .040" of epoxy is extreme (you read that right; forty thousandths!), but even the .006" that's pretty normal in industry is more than I'd like to use. Keeping the finish under .004" calls for pretty dedicated surface prep, even when the finish cures and stops shrinking, quickly, as nitro and the newer UV cure finishes do. When you're using shellac or brushed varnish the whole thing gets harder.

Shellac is actually a pretty hard finish in some respects: Schleskie measured the hardness at about 1/3 less than nitro at the same thickness. These days, with the prevalence of catalyzed and UV cure finishes, nitro is considered 'soft'. Upcoming guitarists deal with 'bulletproof' coatings all the time, and don't learn to care for their instruments as they probably should. In my old shop we used to have players come in to try things and do damage in a half hour that took a month or more to fix, and no amount of cautioning them seemed to help. You can't do Flamenco 'golpe' on a cedar topped Classical guitar with no pickguard and French polish with impunity, and the player only has to forget and tap once. Thicker shellac would be more protective, of course, but the object is to preserve the sound with a thin finish.

Even with 'perfect' surface prep it's very difficult and time consuming to get a 'flawless' finish with varnish that comes up to the modern 'industrial' standard. Oil-resin varnishes require three months to more or less finish curing, and they shrink the whole time. Even with epoxy or CA pore filler you'll still see the pores unless you allow the thing to hang for three months or more between putting on the final coat and leveling it out. Most of us simply can't afford that.

So, no, from my point of view, the modern finish standard is not a low bar at all: not if I'm going to meet my standard for sound as well. The finish standard is there, and we have to do the best we can to meet it. After all, it doesn't matter how good the thing sounds if the people won't take it off the wall in the first place. I have to say that much of my effort for the past 15-20 years has been precisely in improving my level of finish, and at this point I don't feel as though I have to apologize for the results. But it's been a long slog, and it's still not the 'new Mercedes' look that people want. You know you got the finish 'right' when a fly tries to land on the guitar, skids off, and breaks his leg falling to the floor....

The glass isn't half empty, it's twice as big as it needs to be.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com